Dead Motor

Jocool · #1 22-12-2003, 10:00 PM

My recent purchase of a boat has been great. Used it in fishing cruising skiing and just generally muckin around on the water!

On Saturday we were in the Harbour and it stopped dead. Then it wouldnt crank. Starter engaged but did not turn the motor!

IT WAS SIEZED SOLID!!!

After a few phone calls we were towed back to the ramp and took the boat to the dealer who had JUST COMPLETED THE 10HR SERVICE on the Thursday. Unfortunately I didnt buy the motor of him, but to his credit he has been very helpful!

He freed the motor up so that it would turn, but there was a wierd noise emminating from it.

So now I have to wait for Tohatsu to give him the go ahead to strip it and find the problem!!!!

BUMMER!!

Jocool · #2 22-12-2003, 10:07 PM

Just got of the phone to the dealer...who like I said has been very helpful!

THE GOOD NEWS is that its covered under warranty!!!!!!!

The even BETER NEWS is that it should be ready tomorrow!!!!!!

Apparantly it was a collapsed bearing. Im told that it does happen. And it was through no fault of mine...just one of those things.

Looks like all is good and I still have a chance at 10KG kingy in the harbour this year after all!!!

jimi · #3 22-12-2003, 11:13 PM

Great news Jocool. We hear so many stories of dealers who have done the wrong thing. It's great to hear of a good one.

You should tell us their name, we should be supporting the good guys.

Cheers
James.

Jocool · #4 23-12-2003, 12:41 AM

It was NEPTUNE MARINE at Caringbah south of Sydney...they really did well for me. They came highly recommended from Tohatsu.

They service and wreck all brands of motor. I found them to be superb in all facets of their work!

Alex · #5 25-01-2004, 04:49 PM

Hi Jocool,

How big is your Tohatsu? Is it 2 or 4 stroke?Did you have them before? I am thinking to upgrade to 40 H.P. and looking for opinions from the Tohatsu owners.
These motors aren't that big down here south-east, but have good reputation everywhere.

What do you think of them?
Cheers,
Alex

Jocool · #6 26-01-2004, 01:34 AM

Alex.. To be honest..Its an awesome motor. The reason it had dies on me was pure bad luck, and was rectified and given back to me 2 days after dropping it of! Awesome service if you ask me, considering it was just before Christmas, and I didnt even buy the motor from that dealer!!!!!

Its a 60 HP 2 stroke Automixing with trim n tilt, electric start, and its only a tiller version!

pie smuggler · #7 26-01-2004, 06:27 AM

I had the ultimate dead motor today, travelled 90 kms, to Murray Bend WA, suddenly found the that key was back at home,anyway the Kota stood us in good stead, Bear got two god fish, and got really smoked by a third. The Kota pulled the 4.40 Jabiru around for 7 hours solid,can't complain about that

budda · #8 26-01-2004, 07:07 AM

I have a couple of mates that have owned Tohatsu's for years and they have never let them down. They are very reliable, that's why i was surprised by your first post until Iread on. The only reason why I went for a Mercury on my previous boat was because it had the controls on the tiller which just makes it a bit easier and the dealer dealt with Mercs, (and I knew I would only have that boat for less than 5 yrs before upgrading to a new boat). It's a shame the Tohatsu's don't have this feature, but my mates don't seem to see it as a problem.

Jocool · #9 27-01-2004, 02:29 AM

Yeah the trim n tilt was a pain! Initially they are mounted on the base of the tiller so it was virtually impossible to trim while under way. I have moved them to the casting platform...just under the gunwhale where I sit while driving. Now I just drop my hand of the rail when im hanging on tight...and to the trim switch!

#10 27-01-2004, 02:51 AM

Was it a mains or bigend bearing?
Any damage to the cylinder walls?

The question begs why did it collapse? - no oil mixed in the fuel?...(did someone forget?)

If it was a defective bearing - whats the guarantee that the next bearing will be any better?.....or if it was a big end that the mains won't similarly collapse in the next 10 hours use? etc...

Is there some design issue behind the failed bearing - ie are they wringing 70 horses out of what was previously a 40 or 50 horse by increasing the compression or WOT rpms etc?

At the end of the day joe - IMHo you want reliability - and an engine that starts out in oieces within 10 hours can often contnue to be a problem child....

For example - why wouldn't the manufacturer give you a completely new powerhead - everything from the leg up - to avoid any problems down the track...and to restire your "confidence" in the reliability of the engine - what of for example you'd been 10 mikles at sea when it seized...with no one round to tow you back?....

Reliability is crucial in OB's and thats why you pay the big bucks for a brand spanker - to get that confidence and reliability... in many (most) cases in the USA of pwerhead failure - the company replaces the entire powerhead as an act of good faith to restore buyer / user confidence.

IMHO - Thatsu should step up to the plate and do likewise, if the fault is covered under warranty..

I'm not sure I'd want to trust a new motor thats been rebuilt by the local spanner hand at the local outboard wreckers.....compared to one new off the assembly line, wityh all it's quality control checks...

You payed full quid and should IMHO expect full service and confidence in your new OB...which means a new powerhead at the very least...

Do you know that the failed bearing pieces hasn't scored the bore - chipped one of the inlet or exhaust ports, damaged a piston skirt or rings, or mainshaft or bigend etc etc?....

What if the rebuild lasts just long ebnough to get you thru warranty - will you be happy then to buy another new motor if it fails again (prematurely)?

Whilst theres no denying you've had speedy service from the local dealer - which is commedable - shouldn't you at least have got a whole new powerhead direct from the factory?

That would be my take on it at least, anyway...

Whilst Tohatsu have a good reputation - they do also have their lemons as well....

Cheers!

Jocool · #11 27-01-2004, 03:04 AM

What ever I say to you Trouty is going to sound condecending! So at the risk of doing that...here goes!

The collapsed bearing wasnt in the powerhead! The bearing in question is somwhere along the driveline. The whole story is that a bit of swarf was missed at the factory, and entered this particular bearing. This in turn "grabbed" (for want of a better term) the output shaft and stopped it from turning! That is why it "siezed"!

It wasnt the powerhead that actually stopped!

But I really do appreciate your concern, and agree with you on the all the points you made regarding purchasing a new OB.

I feel that the fault does not justify taking it any further! Possibly the wrong thing to do...but Im happy with that, and willing to live with the concequences of my ideas.

As an aside, Nick at Neptune Marine has been the consumate gentleman about the whole affair. Nothing was too much trouble for him and he was more than helpful! And there is NO WAY I would class as a "local spanner hand at the local wreckers".

Once again I dont mean to sound in any way condecending!

#12 27-01-2004, 03:43 AM

If your happy with that explanation then I guess theres not a lot more I can say. Without being condescending either Joe - just passing on my thoughts for what little they may be worth.

Do you have a workshop manual for that engine?

Have you looked at the proceedure to change a water pump on it - i.e. dropping the leg?

If you do - no doubt you'll find that the drive shaft is a spline that fits up into the fly wheel or the end of the crank shaft...(depending on which end they have the fly wheel some honda's or suzuki's I think might have it at the bottom).

Anyway - my point us - there is no bearing on the drive shaft assembly - the output bearing you quote is within the powerhead - like the thrust bearing on the mains..

Output bearing is just another name for one of the mains - usually the last one at the end of the crank with an oil seal...

It gets lubricated bye the oil in the fuel... if swarf dropped into it and it grabbed after 10 hours - what "other stresses" occurred?

Does the driveshaft itself (or crank for that matter) now have early onset metal fatigue as a result of the abrupt stop and torquing effect this must have had?

What about the con rods and bearing caps etc?..and the rest of the mains - did that swarf pass thru any of the other bearings first befoe grabbing in the "output" bearing?

Were they all pulled down and checked?...

The thing is - once you start pulling engines to bits - they never seem to go back together quite the same as they did new - everything had a chance to bed in at the same time when it was new - no so on a rebuild...

A new powerhead overcomes this, everythings new again...starting from scratch, and gets a chance to bed in again at the same time - all torqued at the factory to manufacturers exact specs - and double checked with their production line quality control monitoring. (The same quality control that missed the swarf the first time!)

No one does that to a mechanics work in a dealership when he tears an engine down and rebuilds it...he only has to go to lunch half way thru torquing up a few bolts and forget to torque one when he gets back (while havin a coffee) to set you up for problems further down the track.

All I was saying was that if it were me - I'd have asked for a complete new powerhead, just bolt the old one off and the new one on and you are good to go again.

Hey - naybe thats what you got - maybe thats why / how the dealer was able to get you back on the water so fast - maybe the company just told them to swap a complete new powerhead off an engine in stock to get you on the water in double quick time and maybe the company sent a new powerhead out to the dealer to replace on his engine in stock....

Who knows how they did it so quick - maybe thats what happened? Still it would be nice from a peace of mind point of view to know for 100% sure IMHO.

Joe - these are just my thoghts on it, having read obver the yerars how many folks in the USA get a complete new powerhead when one fails under warranty - it's sort of an industry stabdard thing to do these days...

We Aussies tend to be a bit easier going and so maybe we don't get the same treatement that perhaps a yank would demand and recieve.

I hope it works out fine for you Joe - honest I do - I was just offerering my 2 c worth for consideration.

Cheers!

#13 27-01-2004, 05:00 AM

Quote:

The thing is - once you start pulling engines to bits - they never seem to go back together quite the same as they did new - everything had a chance to bed in at the same time when it was new - no so on a rebuild...

Not starting anything here trouty...
But i beg to differ about the above comment...
If this was the case, why would motorsport enthusiasts (such as myself) pay mechanics thousands of dollars to pull brand new engines apart and blueprint them. The motor used or new always runs better after being blueprinted, and rebuilded. Even if some parts are newer than others.
JMO

Dave

#14 27-01-2004, 05:43 AM

I recall blue printing a 351 ford cleveland V8 when i was probably not much more than your age kingpin...

Lets look at it realistically - you pay mechanics to soup up an engine to get more HP out of it than it was originally designed to deliver. The penalty is engine life - it's dramatically shortened despite all the over engineering of parts done during the blue printing process.

Basically blue printing involves taking out the minute fractions of say bore misalignment in a block due to wear on the original manufacturing tooling dies from having made thousands or millions of engines. Then theres grinding con rods etc to get the weights exactly the same and so it goes...getting the whole thing balanced from one end to the other so it runs with the least amount of out of balance components to reduce internal stresses - thus allowing it to rev to the shithouse for one or two races..

When it fails, you start again for the next big race.

Outboards are sposed to be built for reliability at sea - where your lifes at stake if it fails.

Thats a lot doifferent to some rev head fine tuning a race engine for one or two meets...IMHO...

If the same attention to detail were included in mass manufacturing then yes - likely Outboards would last longer and be more reliable - BUT tooling dies do wear in mass manufacturing of engine components, parts are outsourced and quality can vary based on the cheapest tenderer and so on.

At the end of the day - mass production assembly lines tho still produce a more relaible and consistent product due to the inbuilt checks and controls...where everythings checked and double checked and failures are attributable back to an individual on the assembly line with all the tests undertaken - they know exactly who screwed up and who to sack if it keeps happeneing...

You just don't get this at your local outboard mechanics - he might be the nicest guy in the world - but he's still just human and there aren't 10 or 12 guys whose job it is - to double check every small thing he does...so as a result, well things just don't seem to be as good as direct from the factory...

Heck - I've had aftermarket work by a marine mechanic where a lighting coil rectifier was only held on with one bolt that came loose and it fell off - taking an earth wire with it - the one the kill switch relied upon to shut the engine off!

I just don't think as a generalisation - you get the attention to detail these days.

Take kids these days - on bulletin boards like this one - doesn't matter how good detail your imparting they reply "didn't read it - too long...etc etc..

Likely when they get a job as a outboard mechanic they feel the same way about the workshop manual - if at first you don't succeed get a bigger hammer!

I think I'd prefer a engine off the assembly line where the Japanese guy assembling it knows that if he stuffs up he's expected to go home and commit hari kiri with a samuarai sword to save the companys reputation...at least he has some serious motivation to get it right first time...

Least thats how I rationalise it....either you get it brand new or do it yourself - anything in between is askin for trouble the way I see it.

Cheers!