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#31
05-01-2004, 08:41 AM
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Trouty, do your homework....
Trouty,
Fact : E-Tec meets or exceeds the following Emissions standards: Carb 2006 EPA 2008 Euro 2005/2006. So stop going on about 'pouring 2 stroke oil in the waterways' and do some research. I find it helpful to do my research before making statements in a public arena, does ones credibilty no good at all. There are currently 4 strokes out their that do not meet these standards....again do your research. The above standards measure NOX, CO and HC. These tests are completed by Independant Government bodies. Carb. in California only, EPA in the rest of the USA and Euro by the European Union not by the manufacturer. All manufacturers must comply with the testing and meet the designated levels or face not being able to sell their product in the regions outlined. So how do you think a manufacturer complies, by telling lies? No, by putting the product forward for testing and getting certification. The HC (Hydrocarbon) part of the test measures the amount of unburnt fuel (and oil) exiting to atmosphere. It is here that Di equals or betters most 4 strokes. I would suggest that you do some reading on current 2 Stroke Di technology be it Ficht, E-Tec, Optimax, HPDi or TLDi and then come back with some useful arguments. You do not as you put it 'pour oil in the fuel' not in a Di anyway. As to Beta testing on the public, as I said earlier it has been extensively tested prior to release and carries a 3 year warranty, seems the manufacturer has a lot of confidence. Rod, I too have been involved in the Marine Industry for a long time, nigh on 30 years. Most of that time in the various engine businesses including diesel.
__________________
Talkin' about it is almost as good as doin' it..... 
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#32
05-01-2004, 10:21 AM
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yada yada yada
some people will say anything to sell a 2 stroke! (in a market where you can't give em away!)
The fact is petrol evaporates off the water and unburnt 2 stroke oil doesn't - it pollutes, just look at the oil slick behind any 2 stroke and the unburnt oil dripping down the skeg after use - or the oily residue left on the plugs and so on.. Regardless how the oil gets into the cylinder (whether mixed in the fuel or injected directly) it still doesn't all burn - or it wouldn't be doing it's job of lubricating the cylinder, apriori it must then be exhausted out thru the prop hub along with the rest of the HC exhaust gasses from the burn't fuel. Injecting it into the cylinder doesn't then somehow magically 'extract it back out again" after the combustion cycle and it doesnt all burn or the engine would seize!. No one could argue that injection technology hasn't helped clean up 2 strokes emissions of unburnt hydrocarbons and also make them more fuel efficient..since the timing is now more controled - and combustibles / fuel can be injected to the cylinder after the induction port is closed over, rather than being scavenged premixed from the sump, this is in fact why (for 2 strokes) they are now much cleaner than they once were and exceed emissions standards we might have once not thought possible from a 2 stroke... BUT Lets not forget the same injection benefits are also being derived from 4 strokes, for the same reasons (injection after the air intake valve is closed) AND at the same time theres no oil being injected to be condensated out for lubrication purposes during combustion as there is in ANY 2 cycle, since the lube oil is in the sump where it can later be recovered and recycled. The simple fact is - Oil goes in one end of a 2 stroke (any 2 stroke) and it comes OUT the other (exhaust) end while it doesn't in a 4 stroke - ANY 4 stroke including the injected ones which by far and away outstrip the 2 strokes for emissions standards since they DON't send raw oil out into the water the way 2 strokes do. Any other claims to the contrary are frankly bullshenhyser designed to sell 2 strokes to someone who don't know any better - and I'm not havin any of it, coz I do know better. Challenge - If the Eteks so good lets see it run without the oil, injected or otherwise!!!!. FICHT technology was what bankrupted OMC plain n simple - poor technology (along with owner George Soros taking his bat n ball and going home). When Etecs been around long enough to EARN a reputation for reliability - THEN maybe people will have a right to sing it's praises - but up to now all we are hearing is marketing hype IMHO. Lets not forget it was only a couple years ago that Millions of loyal OMC fans got burnt with unwarranted motors after the collapse of OMC. Along with them went hundreds of mom n pop boating businesses in this country who's only fault was choosing to stay with the sinking OMC corporate ship of state. So - burnt cutomers and burnt dealers - no warrantys and no spare parts...and along comes Bombadier buys the company for pennies on the pound and starts out with a new product hoping to trade on the OMC goodwill of a couple generations of the customers and dealers it's just buried. Aussie boaters have long memories, and any company hoping to ride on the coat tails of OMC will need more than slick sales talk to sucker most boaters again. Fool me once - shame on you - fool me twice - shame on me! So far what i'm reading being repeated by loyal dealers trained in sales speak on boating boards the world over about Etek is all the same - direct outta the company marketing manual - and if you ask me it's slicker n owl snot...but it's still just owl snot until proven otherwise and that takes time in the marketplace - not fancy sales speak - why not let the engines talk for themselves - with a track record that includes good service, warranty, reliability, parts availability etc. Up to now all we are hearing is sales speak - and thats about as reliable as piss talk at the Dianella hotel on a Friday night!  Sure they may be the creme de la creme of 2 strokes - but then again they might just turn out to be another Ficht disaster waiting in the wings...most Fichst blew after 1500 hours and VERY VERY FEW recreational outboards get anything more than 50 - 100 hours use a year. For this reason some users might never experience the Ficht type nightmares because they just never do enough hours for the problem to show up within warranty period. So - lets wait until a LOT of Eteks have over 1500 hours on em to see if indeed Bombadier has done something OMC couldn't do after re engineering Ficht about 10 times. Salesmen singing the praise of something with no track record really shits me to tears - maybe Bombadier make great snow sleds, and next time I wanna boat in the snow I mght go look at a Bombadier product but Bombadier are in their first year of Marine engine manufacture with a totally new untried and unproven technology - I'm stuffed if I'd wanna be their beta testing guinea pig thanks very much. Snow aint salty and dont rust things like the marine environment does - I'd be very surprised if Bombadier get it right first go... Time may prove me wrong but I doubt it - and even if it does - it will still be a stinkin oil burner 2 stroke regadless - a 4 stroke it will never be and to suggest it might be as good or even better is just an outright lie IMHO designed to get some unsuspecting idiot to part with some harderned folding greenstuff for someones sales commission... Theres one born every minute, which is what such sales peoples livelihoods depend upon - but I ain't one of em thanks very much. 4 stroke reigns supreme and always will. I'll take experience over slick sales schpeel for public credibility any day bubble! Cheers!
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#33
05-01-2004, 10:57 PM
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Like I said.....DO YOUR RESEARCH.
And here is a good place to start......
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pauldawson/ And by the way Bombardier have been manufacturing SeaDoo PWC's for years, so I guess they know a little about marine engine manufacturing. And I think some of the ex OMC staffers working for Bombardier would too.....
__________________
Talkin' about it is almost as good as doin' it.....
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#34
06-01-2004, 09:08 AM
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And heres a good place to finnish
Be carefull what you ask for bubble - you just might get it!!!
Blowing the Etek emissions claims to bits!!!! http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ca...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Its all about what they report on and what they DON'T! HC's, No, Co2 & Co aren't all that comes out of a 2 stroke, much as Etek advocates would love to sell us on this furphy that theirs is an environmentally clean engine, it is IF YOU IGNORE THE 2 STROKE OIL PARTICULATE MATTER emissions, as the current standards CARB etc do!!!! Quote:
Just measuring the standard HC, No, Co2 & Co emissions measures for 4 strokes which don't emit anywhere near the same particulate matter and then totally ignoring that particulate matter altogether when reporting on the 2 stroke doesn't give a good environmental cleanliness rating at all IMHO. Why measure the exhaust gasses and ignore the oil particulate emissions when it's the oil particulate emissions we are talking about with these dirty stinking oil burning 2 strokes that are helping to destroy our precious freshwater environments?. Just a little too convenient if you ask me! I maintain my stance that for enclosed inland waters where oil particulate emissions are an issue - that ANY 2 stroke is NOT the most environmentally friendly choice for environmentally conscious breamers to make. I'm not saying Etek technology doesnt have some place within the marine market - I'm saying they don't belong on enclosed inland freshwaters like our rivers and lakes due to excessive oil particulate emissions IMHO. Ya just gotta love that research eh bubble?  Cheers!
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#35
06-01-2004, 10:55 AM
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Gotta love this research..I could getused to this
trouty:-
Quote:
 Bubble:- Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Cheers!
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#36
24-01-2004, 08:03 PM
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Re: Trouty, do your homework....
As to Beta testing on the public, as I said earlier it has been extensively tested prior to release and carries a 3 year warranty, seems the manufacturer has a lot of confidence.
There are cars manufacturers carrying the same 3 year/100000 km warranty. With some of them you don't take your car for the warranty repairs at all or very little, but with some - you take your car up to 24 times. We all know what they are. The point is the manufacturers sometimes offer three year warranty just because they want to sell, not because they have confidence in their product. Only time will tell. "Three year warranty" should not be a decisive point to buy or to claim the product is excellent. Only reputability, proven long history, quality are the main reasons. The fact that Yamaha is having 40-50 % of Aus. market is not based on their warranty, isn't it? Bombardier did not have any previous experiense in building overboards. The fact of buying OMC does not prove their ability to build the best 2 strokes today and meet the stringent emmissions as claimed (mind you, strangely, in a very short period of time). It may be that they meet emmissions requirements but at what cost? Will I care, if I buy Evinrude E-tec, that meets standards, but I get stranded in the middle of nowhere with their three year warranty and "no service" in 5 metres swell? Cheers, Alex
__________________
For a healthy livewell contact me and check out the link below: Monster Miki Addict
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#37
24-01-2004, 09:38 PM
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ETEC questions
Just a few questions for the ETEC people;
- Once the 3 yr/ 300hrs is up and a service is due, what is involved and what sort of $$$ is involved ? - Having had a service done, when is the next one due , another 3yrs/300 hrs? - are any components seized up with corrosion over the 3 yrs covered in the warranty ? FATMAN
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#38
25-01-2004, 12:42 AM
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Re: And heres a good place to finnish
Quote:
All I could see was they talking about Motor Bikes not Boats ?  But please just a short quick to the point reply please, I do get lost in some of the big winded replies.  I have done some looking on Boating industries web site and if you look in search engine under EFI and Yammy and merc there are a few interesting things to read.
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Tony
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#39
27-01-2004, 03:19 AM
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We are talking about
Environmental friendliness.
Especially for inland waterways (like the places we find bream and trout etc...lakes estuaries and so on). Sure as I've said - IF theres a place for etek - it may well be on the open ocean, where MAYBE the effects of unburnt 2 cycle oil might not accululate abd become an environmental problem so quickly - eventually tho it will all add up and when the penguins and krill in the southern oceans start diueing - well that will spell the end of lots of life cycles on this planet. Basically all 2 strokes are the same - there are differences with injected and no injected 2 stroke motors - but as far as oil particulate emissions go - well, they still put tcw 3 in at the front end and push some of it out the other end. Now... IF they used a biodegradeable vegetable based two cycle lubricatiing oil - then MAYBE the nevironmental effect wouldn't be so bad? (I.e one of the new synthetic oils?)... Heck - if they made synthetic TCW3 from recycled fish n chip shop oil maybe the eteks would raise fish with their own chumline! My beef is that the etek blurb about emissions completely ignores particulate matter emissions... The oil condenses out during combustion as liquid droplets and is vented with the exhaust gas. The typical exhaust gas analyser used to give us the CRAB type emissions readings that Bombadier are using to try and say their OB's are cleaner than 4 strokes - ignores the fact that gas anaysers don't analyse liquids (oil droplets) hence a LARGE part of their emissions are totally ignored in the biased reporting frpom the Bombadier company. Let em sell their OB's based on facts not sales hype - which os what people all over the net - who SELL eteks are cutting and pasting about how clean etek is. Sell the engines - I don't care - but don't lie (by omission) to do it - just tell the WHOLE truth and let buyers choose what they want... Eteks may well be around a long while, only time will tell - they may even have a real market - again, only time will tell. In the interim - it would apppear to me their only saviour in the environmental stakes will be if they invent and insist upon use of an environemtally friendly biodegradeable vegetable based TCW 3 synthetic oil... THEN maybe their environmental claims may have some REAL merit. Cheers!
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#40
27-01-2004, 04:49 AM
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Answers.....
Tony, in my opinion that particular bit of research bears no relation to the current technology available in outboards.
Put aside the hype, marketing speak and techno-babble and the E-tec still meets the toughest 'marine' emission controls in the world. There are 4 strokes out there that don't. The secret is combustion after the ports have closed and the fuel burns cleanly emitting gas. Oh yes, and there is an enviromentally friendly bio oil available if you want to use it. Bombardier market it under the Bio-lube brand. 4 strokes and 2 strokes comply with the same emission standards so it appears that 4 stroke emisions do not measure particulate matter either if this is the case. If you have to top up your 4 stroke oil between services where does this oil go....into the water. I would suggest you do your own research or talk to people you know and trust about the technology that suits you as a boater or fisherman. You may even end up with a carbie two-stroke. They are clean and still meet todays emmision controls. Bubble.
__________________
Talkin' about it is almost as good as doin' it.....
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#41
05-02-2004, 05:12 AM
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Re: ETEC questions
Quote:
FATMAN
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#42
05-02-2004, 05:57 AM
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Fatman,
I will ask at my shop this weekend for you about the service cost at 300hours, I would assume ,plugs,filter,impeller,maybe oil . But only guessing mate til i talk to the dealer. The dealer rang me the other day to tell me the new oil is in the XD 100 which uses 50% less than tcw3 oil. Have had mine for just over 5 weeks now and can not fault it.
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Tony
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#43
19-02-2004, 08:06 PM
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Why the Etek claims are full of crap!
Not to get too pedantic about this, but false advertising to sucker people on something as important as the environment gives me the shytes...
Now - I've already shown that 2 stroke engines all emit particulate matter as drops of unburnt oil AND that the current claims for environmental cleanliness (the much vaunted CARB emissions standards) totally ignore liquid oil emissions (called particulate matter). In order to confuse people and maintain the sales - we are being conned into believing that two stroke oil is all burned due to the new electronic injection technology when the inlet & exhaust ports are closed. Well that might be all well n good - but consider this engineering fact which is inerscapable. Two cycle engines - have big ends and mains bearings in their cranckcase. Those bearings must be lubricated. IF as claimed, all the TWC3 oil is burned clean in the cylinder due to the portds being closed at combustion - what lubricates those bearings in the crankcase? The inescapeable fact of 2 cycle engines, is that it isn't just cylinder wall lubrication that keeps them going - it's the oil in suspension in the fuel & exhaust that keeps thiose bearings lubricated...becuase induction air is scavenged from the sump - and exhaust gasses are expelled thru the sump. Thats how the oil gets into the sump to lubricate those bearings. It may well be injected into the cylinder for delivery - BUT it IS exhausted thru the sump to lubricate those bearings... Who knows - maybe the oils even injected direct onto those bearings as well - BUt the fact is the oil is in the crankcase at the same time the exhaust is being pushed thru it - and that oil is carried out with the exhaust into the water. Oil in our water isn't a good thing, whichever way you wish to slice it - it is bad. The test always is - could you bring yourself to willingly walk down a jetty to the end, unscrew a cap from a two stroke oil bottle, and POUR that neat oil into your favourite bream fishing river? How on earth can anyone rationalise to themselves - that it's OK to pour that same oil into their two stroke engine tank - go for a riun down the river - come back, and the fuel and oil are gone?.. If it's an inescapable fact of 2 stroke technology that the oil goes thru the sump and out the back of the engine via the exhaust gas, why is that ANY different in environmental terms - to just walking down the jetty and tiopping it in neat? If you were caught tipping it in the river neat - would you get charged with polluting by the swan river trust? Why is it OK then to tip in in via the route of passing thru your 2 stroke OB first? We have some pretty dumb laws etc in this country, and allowing 2 stroke engines on sensitive waterways like rivers lakes estuaries is just plain dumb given the stresses our rivers are already under. We already have nutrient problems, salinity, diseases etc - all kiling our fish...as evidenced here on this site all too often. Yet - we allow two stroke technology on these same waters? I dont think it's appropriate IMHO. Cheers!
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#44
19-02-2004, 10:39 PM
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Hmm, don't think you guys will ever agree on this stuff, but here is something different that would be cool if it ever made it into an outboard some day.
Honda has just released the second Hybrid electric car in Australia (the toyota prius is the first). They claim to get 5.2l/100km, which is pretty damn good. http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/st...E21822,00.html Love to see hybrid outboards one day. I imagine the petrol part would be great when you want to open it up, with the electric motor kicking in when you hit the speed limited parts of whatever water way you are on. Obviously there are a lot more issues to solve for water based use, such as where to put all the batteries and how to make it water proof, but maybe one day we'll see these about. Cheers James.
__________________
Eating, sleeping, breaming
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#45
20-02-2004, 01:29 AM
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Could be
Sooner than you think Jimi.
One big problem tho is net energy flows. While the new technology for hybrid cars exists already - the net energy flows are negative....so far. What this means is - it takes more fossil fuel emissionsinto the atmosphere in coal burnt at Collie to produce the power to charge the batterys on the car (or produce the hydrogen gas), than the car would emit burning petrol to do the same mileage... Hybrid fuel cars arent the total anser yet environmentally speaking- but HEY the Model t ford wasn't the most luxurious comfortable vehicle built either not long after the internal combustion engine was discovered/built it took another 10 years of development to get to where we are today - and who knows where alternate fuel cars will lead us in another 100 years? We have to start somewhere and alternatives to fossil fuel HAVE to be developed. We are already at "peak oil" (google search those two words for full explanation), and unless we tap an alternate energy source, we will have no choice but to go to war with every oil producing nation on earth like the Saudis and Iran etc etc if we wish to keep our oil based economys afloat. With the rate the Americal oil based economy is collapsing (our $ has gone from trading at a low of 48 c a year or so ago to now 80's yesterday briefly against the US greenback... That should give some idea of how BAD the US economy really is performing...and the reason is because it is a net energy importer and they have long ago used al the cheaply extractable oil in Texas etc...and they can't get what they need out of Alaska due to political reasons (National Parks) so they have no choice but to import. We can't just keep relying on oil - there HAS to be another alternate energy source. I have a feeling it will turn out to be from the domain of 'Time'. Yes, when we conquer Time, Gravity & Magnetism forces, thru the use of my Time discovery M = Δ T equation - you'll see a whole new realm of vessel 9and car) propulsion engines - all operating on the free energy trapped / compressed within time. Thats right 9 x 10 ^ 16 Joules per second of free energy = as much energy as the atom (MASS) has in nuclear power stations! Probably Vessels will employ some sort of plasma wormhole induction drive sytem, is my best guess at present - (looking into my chrystal ball). I'll probably be dead bye then - but my kids wiull likely one day live in the age of the Jetsons on TV when I was a kid growing up... Good luck to them....you young kids with the brains will likely invent the propulsion drive systems I am talking of now... Do a good job of it - and dont bugger it up now will ya - you hear!!! M = Δ T - There I've kept it simple for you all - now go invent an outboard that will run on that!! Cheers!
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Linear Mode
