Fishing the the yacht clubs

[tryhard]

The previous post had it pretty well correct - in NSW no one for the most part owns the foreshore - especially between tidal zones - and if you are not actually on or damageing the yachties equipment (ie in a boat casting around) then they have no rights to tell you to move (unless you are blocking access to the marina or pens and are a danger to navigation) .A lot of these guys are paranoid about damage to their gin palaces and will try and bluff and intimidate you - by the way has anyone looked up the actuall laws ? - quoting chapter and verse to some of these people sounds like fun.

A touch of the jolly green giant maybe?

Maybe it's 'helpfull" to look at the "other side" of the equation, i.e. from the vessel owners perspective for a few moments.

Surely we can relate to that? e.g. - Who here would like a total stranger/s messing around in their shed, eyeing off all the 'goodies' in their bream boat, without the owners supervision and presence / permission?

Any takers?.

Didn't think so.

Those with these floating "gin palaces" as they are sometimes referred to - actually PAY a heck of a lot in annual penn fees for the "right" to park their boat somewhere on the river - not to mention what it costs to keep the facilities maintained etc...

They likely spend as much annually as what some here spend on the entire years bream fishing effort - just for somewhere "safe" to keep their boat.

When they do - they expect to find it as they left it - not minus half the gear that USED to live aboard. Worse would be if it sank in its penn which is a distinct possibility if something goes wrong, and scuppers get blocked - bilge system fails during heavey winter rainstorms etc..

Lets take a senario where a few plastic shopping bags That once contained new bream lures blows off the jetty into the boat. No one here would risk boarding the vessel to retrieve them, in case they were spotted and accused of doing something unlawfull - fair enough.

What if when it rains these bags block the scuppers?

What if no one notices?

What if the batterys flat because someone fishing the jetty (who lost the plastic bags), tripped on the shore power lead and the onboard fridge then sent the batterys flat as the charger was disconnected?

It rains - the boat fills with water and sinks in its penn - thru no fault of the owner...and MANY thousands of insurance $ are lost.

And folks think they should be allowed to fish boat penns?


I do recall once, having some Eastern States fishing guests, who were here a week, and over the weekend - someone was kind enough to take us out to Rotto for a fishing trip on a "gin palace".

When we got back Sun arvo - the plane back east didn't leave until Mon morn early. No problemo, says the owner, sleep aboard overnight Sun night and then head to the airport Mon morning saving a motel room cost!

In appreciation we took the boat owner and his wife out to a local restaurant for dinner.

When we get back - theres 3 guys in dark great coats - purportedly fishing the jetties and foreshore of the yacht club for bream (the owner asked what they were doing as he left, and that was their answer).

We kept an eye on them as they skulked around fishing a little here and a little there - sure enough within an hour they are back on the jetty - then we see one, get onto a game boat and head for the flybridge (we had lights out, they obviously figured we were asleep).

They were using bolt cuttters, to help themselves to a newish zodiac complete with new shiney Outboard secured to the flybridge, and cut thru stainless steel wire rope worth many hundreds of dollars securing it on.

We quietly rang the police on the mobile from inside the boat - they arrived and nabbed the guys in the act.

They "Found" heaps of electromics etc in these guys beat up old car - and told us the next morning as they took our statements - that they also searched their flats and found stuff missing from yacht club vessels ALL up and down the Swan river, going back quite a while.

Unemployed, on drugs - and stealing to support their habits.

Yacht club members know them as "bream fishermen" because THATS the cover they use to case joints, to come back at night and knock em over.

I can guarantee you - that showing up at a yacht club, as a "bream fisherman" - will get your boat rego - car rego and any other identifing features, recorded bye yachties and yacht club commodores etc as a "potential thief", with the intelligence passed on to the local police to be entered on their computer as a potential boat club thief casing the joint.

Show up often doing the same thing (bream fishing) and your 100% guaranteed to be treated a WHOLE lot different bye the police when they spot you for ANY monor traffic infringement, and check your details - and you show up as a potential yacht club theif...due to "intelligence gathered / passed on" bye yachties trying to protect their vessels.

You can expect to be breathalysed every time - your vehicle searched - who knows ,maybe a warrant to search your home - work place etc etc...

Sounding like fun yet?

In my opinion - only a total idiot would try to fish yacht clubs, and argue with the legitimate owners / tennants etc who pay a fortune in fees and insurance premiums because of the rampant theft.

I know - & you know, that Breammasters type catch and release bream people aren't thieves, BUT the yachties etc don't know that.

Maybe Ira should ASK himself - why did the Qld water police "throw the book" at him recently for a water speeding offence?????? I wonder what their computer told them?..and what "Intelligence" gets shared nationally???.

Did they unknowingly "suspect" Ira as maybe head of an interstate boat gear theft ring visiting Qld under cover of a fishing comp to set up networks to "fence" stolen boat electronics, based upon "questionable intelligence" provided bye yacht club members????

You see the potential problems associated with wanting to innocently "catch a few tempting horse bream" from around the pylons of yacht clubs?

(It;s OK Ira - I know your a good guy - just using it as an "example" to prove a point!)

So - the yacht club calls the police who have a string of 'unsolved' boat gear thefts at that particular yacht club..and they are under the hammer to satisfy the commodore and their boss (who move in the same social circles) with a result - a conviction.

Plod arrives and starts interviewing you about what your doing their etc...and you start explaining about catchng these huge bream, and how it's your "legal right" to be there etc etc.

And the commodore and policeman point out that it's not safe to EAT any bream from the club environs due to all the copper ablative antifoul in the water / molluscs and fish, from the hulls moored and annually scraped / repainted there!!!

Thats when you pipe up and explain that - "Oh I don't kill any - I let them all go!"

Gee - your alibies looking REAL good about now isnt it?

Put yourself in the position of the yacht club, the policeman etc - and you'll understand why your feet don't touch the ground between the Club and East Perth lockup!!.

Likely they will tell you about your legal rights "Heres 50c, ring & tell it to someone who cares".

Soo..breamers should be legally allowed to fish yacht club penns eh?

Gimme a break - you guys are in danger of starting to believe your own press - which is ALWAYS dangerous in a modern society.


I think Frankly that REAL breamers (like those who frequent this site need to "alter" their image with the Yacht clubs - maybe a few "goodwill visits" to clubs - some "breammaster identification badges and decals for boats vehciles - a brocure about the boom in the sport - the "type of decent people involved and how good a structure Yacht club jettys make for real good bream.

I think if approached positively, bye the right people - the yacht clubs might actually see some "value" in having breamers artound the penns - spotting & reporting potential problems with boats - a chafed rope here a fender out of position there - a dodgey character preteding to fish here or there who ISN't wearing any bream master ID and so on.

The more eyes protecting their investements, the better. You guys are partly boat owners here so should be able to see both sides of the equation and sell your position to the Yacht clubs - get articles in their meber magazines about potential benefiots and so on.

Get face to face with those who run these clubs and have obne or two godwill visits to yachtclubs, work on it one club at a time...with the industry leaders doing the PR worht with the yacht clubs.

It's not Breammasters members fault that 'breamers' have a 'bad reputation' with yacht club patrons - BUt it is a situation where the position could be turned around into a "win win" solution for your members AND the yacht clubs IMHO.

At the end f the day - all the users of the Swan river ARE just people and we should be able to all get along. It's the minority who have spoiled it for the majority but the Majority COULD turn the current situation around IMHO.

Cheers & good luck with it.

P.s. Oh yeah - I don't own a floating gin palace, nor have a pen at any yacht club - I've just 'seen' the flip side of this coin from the yachties point of view.

[Ghoti]

Fisherman Vs Boaties - Forgive me for saying its hard to understand how some fisherfolk own boats.

I have to agree with trouty - as a boat owner who pays $10 to launch and retrieve my boat at Patterson lakes I get pretty p****d off at fisherman who wont move their lines so I can tie up at the dock.

I have no problems with them using the dock, but as:

• I contribute to the costs of maintaining the facility through launching fees - they don't
• The facility is a boat launching facility
• They can cast their line almost anywhere in the Patterson lakes system, yet I can only tie up at this facility
• I only need 10 minutes and they can put their lines back in

Given the troubles I've had on occasion where they simply wont pull in their lines I'd put my hand up to ban land-based fishing there (is this where I duck? ) In the mean time its two polite requests followed by ten minutes at home removing cut lines from the prop.

Yep, the boat penns do provide great structure for bream fishing...but they were built as boat penns and fees are charged for folk to use them as such. Unfortunately fisho's often mean litter, damage - effectively pooping in their own nest.

I know that the grunts that exhibit the behaviours I described don't frequent these forums, but how do the Swan River yachties, or any other boatie tell who will do the right thing? The only way is a responsible and well presented submission to the club that clearly demonstrates the benefit to yachties, how access will be managed, and how the yachties rights will be honoured.

Cheers,
Scott

[nifty]

Well put guys and very understandable too. It may be even the more reason for us to buy and wear a breammaster cap or badge or something. I fish near the yacht clubs often and haven't had a problem yet but I am carefull what I do and stay away from the mooring areas and boats, I just get as close as I can without being in the way or annoying anyone..... Neville

[tryhard]

I think people are missing the point - of course you can't fish the jetty's - they are private property with no arguement what so ever - BUT the surrounds being the water and tidal zone are not - and if you are polite and as I said don't pose a danger to navigation you arn't a problem. It goes without saying if you are in the way you move, simple.The point of the post was to point out that sometimes poeple get territorial about these places but do not necessarily are allowed to be.I pay all taxes even a recreational license fee to fish the water - so as the commercial fishers made the statement does that not give me so called "property rights" , my home property rates pay for the boat ramps and vehicle/boat rego fees as well as fuel taxes and vehicle/boat liscence pay for a hell of a lot more - maybe thats why I can't afford a boat in the pen (I will avoid the term gin palace - damn!!).Its a user pay world and I pay and if these people think that because they pay more they have more claim to the waterways then there is something wrong - I am not advocating a sit in on the local yacht club jetty or a may day march I am saying that if you are in the right and you KNOW you are in the right you should stand your ground . I do not stand up for the yobbo's who vandalize and steal and am insulted that this is implied - if YOU obey the law then you should not be intimidated by those who bluff and bully.

[docbromley]

Trouty,

Plenty of "ifs and buts" there mate. Someone hit a nerve?

I gotta say, the chances of a plastic bag sinking a launch are pretty damn remote. I'm not saying it's OK to litter but come on, to blame a fisherman of any type for this would be absurd. "Oh my boat sank - those bloody bream fishermen!" What a joke!

Look, theft from yacht clubs will always be a problem because there is valuable property there - secure it - insure it - that's the owners responsibility. Maintenance will also prevent a problem - that includes cleaning it and securing the plastic bags that the owner leaves on it.

It's not anyone's problem who simply wants to abide by the law and fish where the law says they are allowed to fish.

Be polite and courteous and you will not have a problem.

How stupid do you think we are? Or are you? If you think that "You can expect to be breathalysed every time - your vehicle searched - who knows ,maybe a warrant to search your home - work place etc etc..." then I think you're the naive one.

"Put yourself in the position of the yacht club, the policeman etc - and you'll understand why your feet don't touch the ground between the Club and East Perth lockup!!. You truly ARE naive. Mate, we're not primary school students I'd like to see someone try to arrest me for fishing!

You can huff and puff all you want but the fact remains that if you do the right thing you will be OK.

Additionally, to even suggest that the book was thrown at Ira in QLD due to his fishing is even more absurd.

OK, I've got that off my chest. I will give credit where credit's due. Your comments regarding improving relations with the yacht clubs are valid and if you anyone has the time and resources to take on such activities they should be commended. However I can't help but invisage that it would be like banging the proverbial head...

Happy fishing

Doc

By the way - did you know that Neil Armstrong didn't make it to the moon - conspiracy story.

take it easy, no one here is implying your a yobbo or theif.
The user pays concept is all well and good.
Fact is you can use any PUBLIC facility you like - because thats what your license fee's taxes and rates etc pay for = PUBLIC facilities.

Yacht clubs however AREN'T public facilities.

They are privately owned facilities, paid for bye yacht club members.

As the the tenure of the land and water, which yacht clubs stand upon one needs to be very very carefull as this is a iron clad clear situation.

The manageing authority - has the legal right to assign, license or lease the said land and water to anyone it deems fit. IF they have so assigned licenmsed or leased said land and water to the yacht clubs who have built their facilities on such land - and remember it's NOT a public facility, THEN, basically - your trespassing.

Leases are used when only ONE person (entity/club) has EXCLUSIVE access rights - while Licenses are issue for multiple access rights to crown (or managing authority) vested land & water.

So - you can't trespass upon someone elses mining lease, pastoral lease, or yacht club lease because in the main these are "exclusive access leases".

Thats why, inplaces like tasmania's Hydro scheme areas, folks BUY & SELL 99 year land leases to build fishing shacks etc.

Would anyone think they had a right to biuild a fishing shack on someone elses bought and paid for 99 year lease?

Similarly - you have no legal access right to the land & water in any Yacht club lease.

If you try and argue this line when the police are called, (as they inevitably will be) you will lose big time, the police will haul you off to East perth Lockup - give you 50c and tell you to ring and tell someone who cares what you think your legal rights are, (because they will know for 100% certain what those legal rights are and that your in the wrong).

Like I posted - I think if this was approached the right way, the yacht clubs mifght actually welcome the right types of folks around their leases, but as always - it only takes one ot two to stuff it up for the majority.

The land and waters of this state DO belong to all of us, "except for, that which is sold off with a title deed, leased, or licensed, to specific users.

Try fishing in a marine park, (or conducting an unauthorised commercial tour) based upon the premise that you as a citizen own the water, and see where it lands you.

IF you have the appropriate eco tourism LICENSE (and have paid the fee) THEN you can conduct a tour in a MARINE park, BUT - unless you pay the fee - you can't even ENTER a national park as a citizen, regardless of whether you believe you own it in some way.

Land tenure ISN'T such a difficult concept to understand.

Confusion arises due to the old concept of "crown land", to which all citizens had a legal right to enter upon. You USED to see (on scale maps etc) "crown land listed as the vesting, and some places were shown as "common for travelling stock" etc - where drovers could keep their cattle sheep etc during overland trecks to market/beter grazing areas and so on.

These no longer exist. Crown land as a concept exists - but crown land as a reality is gone there simply IS no more crown land left it is ALL now VESTED is SOME type of Sate Govt managing Authority. (Dept Of LAnd Admin DOLA, Dept CALM, Waters & Rivers, WAter Authority etc etc etc).

Why?

Because of Abroriginal land rights, after the Mabo decision.

ALL Crown land was up for land rights claims, so the State Govt moved swiftly to VEST all land in some form of state controlled management authority to KEEP it from being subject to any claims.

This is why you no longer HAVE any right as a citizen to enter what you think to be "crown land". It no longer is - ALL land in WA (and the most of the rest of Aus) is now vested in some managing authority.

Hope this helps "clarify" what for some is a grey area due to old Crown land access issues/beliefs.

The worlds moved on and the citizen LOST a heck of a LOT as a result of Mabo and it's legal aftermath!

Cheers!

[Bear]

Some creative stuff there, but I'll ask just one simple question. Are you willing to allow councils and governments to cover our waterways with clubs and jetties that are only affordable by those with big pay packets.

I don't think so.

We have approached a number of yacht clubs on occasions about setting up a user pays or breamers-fishing-social club. Each time we've had a big no. Why, beacause most of these clubs would like to keep us out of their area.

So, if we want to fish around from a BOAT, I say go for it.

On the other hand, I'd also be happy to have them take my boat number any time a boat was robbed to see where I was. I've got nothing to hide, I just want to fish.

One final way to look at this is I don't think there would be such an issue if we could get governments to help out with things like artificial structures that we could fish.

JMO.

[Evan]

guys i think you are missing the bigger picture of troutys post

i mean how many of you can actually say that you only fish the foreshore of yc and dont go onto the jetties at all??? - i dont think that it would be many.

i fish yc quite a bit but only the ones that i am a member with or a mate is a member with (and he is present). i have seen on many occassions people scaling barbed wire fences to get onto the jetties. these fences are placed there with locked gates for security purposes. what more should the yc have to do - get a permanent security guard thats there 24/7 - surely thats unreasonable. further i dont think that it is fair that yc members should have to pay extra insurance premiums to protect their locked up goods just so us fishos can fish for bream in ycs.my boat has been broken into and quiet frankly it is a pain in the ass claiming insurance with all the hassels of proving what was on the boat was on the boat and then being stung with increased premiums for loss of no claim bonus, or extra membership fees for increased security patrols

most of the members have no problems with fishos breamin and the like, in fact most of the time they are helpful and point out were to get the big bream, however you have to understand why some get their nickers in a knot. for example in the past week i have noticed a dramatic increase in bait wrapers, tangles of fishing line on the jetties not to mention tangled lines and presumably hooks jigs etc wrapped around pen ropes etc. i dont think that it is fair that people should have to run the risk of getting rusty hooks stuck in them when they are trying to free the mooring ropes.

i agree that most of us bream fishos do the right thing however it is a shame that the untidy few wreck it for everyone.

BTW: members pay a lot of money to keep their floating gin palaces at yc -so i think that a bit of respect should be inorder.

JMO

Ev

[Bear]

Don't disagree about the jetties Evan. My inlaws have been members at Claremont for a long time and I often sail out from there so I know what has been happening.

I just think that there are ways around this that would benifit all of us.

I also don't want to see the day when we can't fish a lot of the Swan and other rivers because of new or expanded clubs that have sprung up to cater for those who want pens.

[Craig H]

Originally posted by trouty
Similarly - you have no legal access right to the land & water in any Yacht club lease.

If you try and argue this line when the police are called, (as they inevitably will be) you will lose big time, the police will haul you off to East perth Lockup - give you 50c and tell you to ring and tell someone who cares what you think your legal rights are, (because they will know for 100% certain what those legal rights are and that your in the wrong).

I've spoken to the Swan River Trust when out fishing and they made it very clear to me that I had the right to be anywhere along the shore of the Swan, within 6 metres of the tide marking. This came about when I was fishing upstream next to Lilac Hill. As they drove down the field track that I was fishing adjacent to, I questioned whether or not where I was fishing was privately owned and whether I was trespassing (there were no gates or signs erected).

This certain meterage/allowable access is in place primarily for safety. If someone has an accident on the water and needs to get to the shore, they can do so without fear of the "Police being called and whisked off to East Perth lockup" for trespassing onto private property. Granted, it could be seen as abusing or taking advantage of this 'rule' but as mentioned above, it's all about how you conduct yourself.

If the Police approached me after being called because I was fishing from the shoreline, I'd flip them a 50c coin and tell them to call the Swan River Trust

[corey]

I think my phone has been tapped

[docbromley]

Originally posted by trouty
take it easy, no one here is implying your a yobbo or theif.
The user pays concept is all well and good.....

TRYHARDER

You can babble along with all the legal crap you want but I can tell you, the Police will not lock you up for walking and fishing on yacht club grounds. Nor will they persecute you for your fishing ambishions via "intelligence gathering." You've been watching way too many movies.

They may ask you to "move on" if you were stupid enough to ever let it get to that stage but hey, DohDohDohDoh happens.

If some sour faced yacht club member/official wants to ruin HIS day, whilst attempting to ruin someone elses then so be it.

Next thing you'll be telling me I can't walk my dog around the golf coarse - yeah sure.

Doc

Hey Corey - someone is filming you!

[Sambo]

Well said Doc!
Trouty mate... where do you get off preaching your piss-weak scenario's and going off on tangents like that? In the begining of your first reply you were speaking relevant info but jeeeeeeezus where did it go from there? did i miss something people or are all of you just as confuzzled as me?

[corey]

There is a dark sedan in my rearview mirror