Four stroke vs Two Stroke ???

Bit of a tossup with etec IMHO.

The disadvantage that 2 strokes have traditionally had - has been in emissions.

Becuase the ports are open while the fuel / air mix is scavenged into the combustion cylider from the crankcase, a proportion of unburnt fuel/oil is emitted with the exhaust, which is why 2 strokes have had trouble meeting emissions requirements.

The new injection technology however allows the timing of the fuel oil mix to be delivered into the cylinder AFTER the ports are closed, hence the reduction in unburnt hydrocarbons emissions is substantive and they are achieving very comparable results to a 4 stroke apparently.

That said - it was failed direct injection technology (FICHT) that sent OMC broke, with recalls / power head failures and so on only a couple or 3 short years ago.

Now they have been bought by Canadian Bombadier corp - and redesigned. Bombadier are Kings of the two stroke snow mobile engine tech business...

Since they re launched the evinrude line Bombadier have divested themselves again of the Evinrude / Johnston trade name - I think selling the OB business into a family owned business for whatever legal / tax or potential liability reasons we can only guess at.

How long Etech lives(or does) is anyones guess as it's still early days. The initial results look promising.

One thing no 2 stroke so far can get past, is the fact that the oil mixed with the fuel isn't fully combusted in the burn process - in fact it's designed to condebnse out of the mix upon firing to lubricate the cylinder walls / rings.

If this wasn't the case, then you would be able to run a 2 stroke without oil, without it seizing, now wouldn't you!

So - wheres that unburn't oil end up?

The answer is in the water - whichever way you look at it - it comes out the exhaust into the water.

How many 1 litre bottles of 2 stroke oil does an average boater use a year?... 6 or a dozen?

Would yu willingly walk down the barrack street jetty and pour that same amount of oil into the swan river knowing that with the rising / lowering tide, it was going to kill the barnacles on the timber snags that your prized bream munch on to survive?

I doubt many of us would be able to bring ourselves to do that.

The insidious thing about 2 strokes is that, because we mix the oil and fuel at the garage or at home and never see it again, we just assume - it "dissapears", never giving much thought about where too.

I recall seeing the results of some water testing from Lake Jasper when it was being included into the DeEntrecasyeaux nat park back in my CALM days, and even this freshwater pristine lake in a national park showed traces of oil and lead (from outboard fuel) because it occasionally used to get used as a water ski lake by a few die hards from Manjimup prepared to tow their boats all the way in there on the 4wd sand tracks.

Simply put - the damn stuff just about never goes away - it accumulates.

Take the number of boats that you see on the Swan River, and multiply them all over a years use...bye say 6 x 1 litre 2 stroke oil containers - and go pour that amount of oil into the Swan and it could only be best described as a major toxic waste spill in environmental terms.

Then look at the problems the Swan R and it's fish already have with algae blooms, sewerage spills, mass mortalities, red spot fungus etc etc - and I think we have to come to a point where finally we say no more.

Basically I think we are at that point - mauybe not yet for the ocean, but definitely for inland fresh waters...

Clean and all as 2 strokes now are with the new etch technology, - I still don't believe, they have a place in our delicate inland freshwaterways in this country...

The oceans for a while longer - maybe so...but not our precious scarce inland waterways in this desert nation.

Thats how I see it, theres more than a price / weight consideration - theres the future of the resource.

From this the question then begs - Should bream comps allow the use of 2 stroke OB's?

"Release the fish alive" so they, (and the food chain they rely upon) can die from oil contamination, which by allowing use of 2 strokes, the comps unwittingly encourage?

Maybe it's something to think about for future rules changes...

How the fish die - whether bye oil or nets is immaterial if they die, if you see where I''m headed..

Cheers!

[Stu_000]

Thanks for all that info spec. Trouty. All very interesting. Still I don't know whether to go with the 15hp Johnson or pay an extra $1500 for the 15hp Honda 4 stroke. I'm probably swayed by the oil argument from Trouty. Does any have/had upgraded from smaller o/b's around 15hp from 2 to 4 stroke? Just want some more testimonials on the 4. I'm streaching the budget to go with the 4 but I will if I'm fully convinced. Its only going to used for local river fishing no offshore stuff.

Red spot fungus, algal blooms, mass fish die offs, it's not like the fish you seek ahavent already got it bad in terms of environmental stress....

Who in their right mind would empty a litre bottle of 2 stroke oil neat into the water off the barrack st jetty?

If any breamer saw someone do that, they would punch em in the gob most likely.

Yet because we pour it in the fuel tank and it magically disapears...it can't be doing any environmental harm???

The reality is - it's helping to slowly kill the rivers and the fish you all love - they are BOTH being loved to death by 2 strokes, not to mention farmers - pumping irrigating etc etc.

Not all the 2 cycle oil is burned during the combustion process - it precipiates out and lubricates the cylinder walls on each stroke and is expelled with the exhaust gasses each stroke.

With a 4 stroke it stays in the sump.

Theres a zillion other good and bad reasons to justofy both technologys - but hands down 2 strokes LOSE every time when it comes to the water and the fish...

I don't know many folks who would go backward from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke these days.

You guys have pretty much covered the mechanical, weight, fuel savings, and other issues...but environment should be number 1 IMHO.

How many Breamers would volunteer a Saturday to "clean up unburnt 2 cycle oil from streamsiode vegetation, waterfowl etc once a year?

How many litres a year does a average 2 cycle OB owning breamer pour thru his engine into our waterways via his engines exhaust?

Reformed smokers are the worst for nagging about the anti smoking message - and reformed 2 stroke owqners aren't that far behind when it comes to healthy waterways.!

Cheers!

[bubble]

All,
Interesting to note that the E-Tec meets and exceeds 2008 EPA standards on emissions and is rated 3 Star Ultra low emmisions by CARB. It also meets Euro 2006 emissions standards.
You may find it hard to believe but there are a lot of 4 strokes out there that do not meet these requirements......so before you all rush off and buy or talk up your 4 strokes you should do your homework.
The new E-tecs are also more fuel efficient and just as quiet. Hel you can even start them without a battery, great for guys that forget to turn things off!!!!!!

And just one more comment on 4 strokes.....Where does all that used oil (a known carcenogenic) end up? Have you ever asked the guy that does your servicingfor you where he disposes of his used oil?

[Mick]

The Etec is certainly cleaner than a normal 2 stroke which is a good thing but it doesn't exceed the standards of any of the 4 strokes. The Etec, Honda, Yamaha and Merc all have a USA 2006 EPA rating. The Etec has a 2004/2008 CARB rating as does the Honda and I'm fairly sure both the Yams and Mercs have the same rating.

In relation to oil, my service centre actually adds on a disposal fee so the oil is disposed of properly or recycled for other uses.

The Etec has some good attributes but they are heavy for a 2 stroke. The 50HP Etec without a tiller handle comes in at 107kg compared to the Honda 50HP which has gone up from 95kg to 102kg with the addition of the new tiller handle for 03.

[bubble]

This is what I mean about doing ones homework....

Evinrude E-Tec 40, 50, 60, 75 and 90 meet or exceed the following emissions standards:

USA EPA 2006
CARB 2008(3 Star)
EU 2005/ 2006

Honda EFI 4 strokes:
USA EPA 2006
Carb 2008
Do not meet EU2005/2006

Mercury 4 strokes same as Honda

Yamaha I would assume same as Honda

So, E-Tec is the cleanest technology to date, meeting the best 4 stroke to date that being an EFI for total reportable emissions as laid down by the EPA, CARB but beating them with European Union Recreational Craft Directive (Euro 2005/2006) emissions compliance.
Interesting also to note that waste oil disposal is not part of any of these emissions standards and yet with 2 stroke DI it is alraedy part of the compliance. I guess if they were fair they would have to report the waste oil usage?

[Tony]

Hi,

I am one of them people that has gone from a Yammy 4-Stroke to a 75 E-tec from Evinrude. After a test drive in one and doing my homework had no hesitation what so ever to jump back to the 2-stroke. Technoligy has changed so much in motors that it is hard for all of us to keep up with. I think I am on a winner with my new E-Tec.

I have had it for all of 5 hours use and have loved every minute of the low noise level at all rpm's and no smoke, I am not sure of fuel stats yet as the Stupid fuel gauge aint working .

I keep lifting the Cowl to see if any oil has been used and at one stage was wondering if the oil injection was woking as it has only used ever so little oil. But i know it is.
It has the grunt of a 2-stroke at all revs,trolls smooth with no smoke or hickups, and stars within 3/4 turn of the flywheel.

It only weighs 141 Kilo's, for a 75Hp with this fuel econemy it is cheaper than a four stroke.

The quotes of being heavy of the 50hp I am not sure but the 50 Yammy I had was more than the 50 E-tec. The two years i got it serviced cost over $600 in parts and labour. Will save money on me E-tech in the first 6~12 months of use.

I am not Ofay with all the techno and other stuff you Speak of Trouty but I know I will be very Happy with my choice of Motor.
I pay for the dispose of my oil but where does it go. ?

[Davo28]

gear oil- $7
plugs- x3 - $12
grease- $8

That's a cheap service for under thirty dollars.

No disrespect intended here at all fatman but what youve described as a "service" is barely half of whats required. theres alot more to maintaining an outboard than just changing plugs, oil etc.

the most important part to servicing and maintaining your motor is in the bottom half.... the water pump, prop shaft, bung washers, drive shaft splines etc etc
My advice to anyone servicing their own O/B is to get hold of the specific workshop manual and test equipment and do it thoroughly!

It is vital to remove the leg and check the impeller for any cracks, nicks and general wear. If it looks even slightly suss...REPLACE IT! at the same time inspect the seals on the top of the water pump housing and also the seals around the prop shaft and ensure they are still in good condition. the last thing you want is water in the gearbox! It can be quite pricey to rectify. Make sure that every bolt that gets removed is cleaned up well with a wire brush and greased well with a good quality marine grease like "quicksilver 101" before putting it back. at the same time the drive shaft splines and prop shaft splines should get the same treatment. a build up of salt obviously leads to corrosion and if anyone has ever tried to drill out a snapped bolt or remove a drive shaft from the powerhead, prop from the prop shaft etc after corrosion has set in.... its a major chore and can be very expensive.
replacing the bung washers every service is also important, a squashed or torn washer WILL NOT keep water out of your gearbox. if you get water in there, by the time u get round to servicing it again it may have already caused considerable damage.
for the people that dont know..... checking your gearbox for water is simple. water will sit on the bottom of the box so if u gently crack open the lower bung screw and clean water comes trickling out first then you need a technician (the water will only run clear if it hasnt been running in the last 24hrs or so and been mixed up with the oil... in this case the oil will be a milky yellow even white colour)

its also advisable to get hold of a spark tester and compression tester as this is also very important. a weak spark could be caused by a number of things and is best checked out by a qualified technician. misfiring on one or a number of cylinders may be very slight and not always noticeable but it will cause damage if left unnoticed. same with compressions. all cylinders should have the same amount of compression and without a compression tester again it WILL go unnoticed and cause damage.

theres also the visual side of things... check all over the powerhead around the cylinder head and side cover for any salt deposits... if salt starts to ooze out it is strongly advised to remove the cylinder head cover and/or side cover and clean out the water galleries.... if u dont theres a fair chance youll cook your motor.

another important thing to ensure on an oil injected motor is that the calibration is set properly and by this i mean the right amount of oil/fuel ratio is being deposited.

there are numerous other things to be aware of when servicing your own motor so guys if u insist on doing it yourself...get the correct manual for your specific make/model O/B a few bits of test equipment and the right tools for the job and do it right.

Like i said before fatman this is in no way an attack on you. i read your thread and thought it would be a good opportunity to point out some important facts and hopefully help a few people out

cheers
Davo

Davo...that is one of hte best posts ive seen on here in quite some time mate.
Couldnt agree more about the servicing. Although i know didly squat about outboards, I used to race 2 Stroke motorbikes and servicing is definately more than just plugs and oil. The time is consumed in checking and cleaning as you said.
I cant remember, but I think I was told that the E-tec is using Orbital technology. Is this correct?

cheers

Dave

[bubble]

Dave, the E-tec does not use the Orbital system. That system is used by Merc. in their Optimax range. The Orbital system is a propriatory system that Merc. pay a license for.
The secret to E-Tec's success is in their simple injection system and that is also the secret to their emissions compliance.
The Orbital system uses an air compressor and fuel injection system. The air compressor is belt driven. It is a more complicated system than the straight Direct Inj. system used by E-Tec.
Bombardier use the Di system in their Snow Mobile and PWC range as well as in their Rotax range of small engines.

[Tony]

I know this is a W.A. site but if anyone here is in Southeast Queensland and is heading out to Somerset Dam on the weekend of the 12th January I will be there fishing with my son.

You are more than welcome t come and have a look and come for a spin if want to .
I will be fishing with my 8 year old son and will be doing a heap of trolling.
So look for the Blue 475 Hornet with the two stroke with no smoke comming out the back and say Hi.!

More than welcome.

[bubble]

Rod, just a couple of points I would like to question you on......

You say:
"The fact that etec has a higher standard of compliance is only due to them not submitting motors 4 years ago for standard testing then".

E-Tec was not around 4 years ago, although the Ficht range from 75 - 250hp was around and was and still is compliant with EPA and Carb.

You also say:
"The companies that now have till 2006 compliance are not going to rush out and get 2008 just because a late starter in the technology race has slightly overtaken them"

I would like to know who this 'late starter' is. Evinrude and Johnson have been around since 1921 and Bombardier have been around since 1937 and given the length of time they have been around and the resourses in Rotax, Ski Doo, Seadoo, Johnson and Evinrude they have I would say they have been a leader in the respective technology fields but not a late starter.
There may be some 4 stroke engine builders out their that will struggle with the new Euro 2005/2006 emission rating.

Water pumps and gear oil?
3 years/300hrs No dealer scheduled Maintenance

High volume, low flow, self flushing water pumps. Of coarse if some one hits a sandbar or mud bank and looses telltale flow it would need to be investigated. But that is repair not scheduled maint.
Gear oil - large volume gearcases and again if some one wraps some braid or whatever around the propshaft again that is repair not maint. Given the advances in gear oils, synthetic lubricants and seal materials I am surprised that it hasn't been done before.

Most cars these days have sealed for life diffs and transmissions and spark plugs that last 100,000Km, why not do the same in the marine industry. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done.
Maybe the poor dealer feels threatened......no more outragous service bills to unleash on the unsuspecting boating public.
The on/off highway heavy diesel industry now has 100,000km between oil and filter changes and their engines last 1.2 million Km or more......anmd some of that gear runs in atrocious conditions.

Just one more point I would like to make:

4 Stroke only waterways......be careful what you wish for because the cleanest total emission technology available today is Di 2 stroke....Di 2 stroke only waterways has a nice ring to it!!!!!!!

[bubble]

Rod, a couple more points and you should really do your homework.........
Euro 2005/2006 are the toughest Emissions regulations in the world and E-Tec meets these.

Quote "The reason they went broke in the first place was because they fell behind heavliy in technogical race."

Right up to the end of OMC they led the technology race with Ficht. And it was'nt Ficht or technology that put them out of business it was bad financial and management practises.
The current Ficht product is both EPA and Carb certified and was at its launch. Putting it way ahead of its competitors at the time of it's launch almost 8 years ago. OMC rejected Orbital due to expense, complexity of the system and no. of parts involved.

Quote "You have to admit that this product has been thrust on to the market with no real testing."

This product has been the best kept secret in the Marine World to date and has been extensively tested both in-the-field at factory level, dyno tested, tank tested and endurance tested at their dedicated test facility in both salt and fresh water. Tests include freezing, heating, WOT, no oil running, destruction testing etc.
This testing gives it a distinct advantage over other technologies and that is why it has a 3 year non declining warranty.

It is interesting to note that Mercury got its start in life in 1937 by buying a bankrupt outboard manufacturer. Ollie Evinrude started building outboards in 1907.

Not a proven technology in my book - product is being beta tested on the public at full retail prices.

Maybe time will prove me wrong (but i don't believe it likely!).

Most cars these days have sealed for life diffs and transmissions and spark plugs that last 100,000Km, why not do the same in the marine industry. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done

My comment would be that if your car breaks down you call the RAC and get a taxi, but if your OB breaks down you might drown!

Just becaise it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done in marine environment...

Aeroplanes engine servicing is VERY strictly controlled for the same reasons - peoples lives are at risk. IMHO - the same rationalisation applies to boats using OB's.

As far as Etek being environmentally cleaner than 4 stroke - get real, the 2 cycle oil goes into the water whichever way you cut n slice it and trying to bullshyte otherwise just to sell OB's is crapola IMHO.

You pour the 2 sroke oil in the fuel - and the etek has no way of scavenging that oil back and putting it in a container to be recycled - it goes out the exhuast hub INTO THE WATER and to keep claiming otherwise is just a deliberate lie designed to sell product - doing no ones credibility any good.

If people wish to choose 2 stroke technology and light weight in order to go for 2 strokes over 4 strokes because they don't care about the environment and transom bouyancy issues dictate thats the best course for them - then fine - but no need to bullshyte about the cleanliness of 2 strokes when it comes to oil in the water IMHO - thats just asking to be shot down.

When you can hand me back the 1 litre 2 stroke container full of the oil the Etek gets back after using it to lube the cyclinders - ready to be recycled - then come talk to me about 2 strokes - until then someones got hold a there ol fella and is stranglin it in public and it's pitiful to watch IMHO

Cheers!

[corey]

The Idea of a professional servicing my outboard at least once a year is a real piece of mind.
Its worth the cash to not have to "get out and push"